9 th Gigapop Geeks BOF hosted by Dan

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9 th Gigapop Geeks BOF hosted by Dan Magorian & Brent Sweeny • Welcome!! The forum where Gigapop/RON operators can rant, rave, and be politically incorrect about current hot technical topics. • Now that the 2 R&E nets are acting like competing vendors, how many neutral forums are left where free speech is still possible? • Tonight’s discussion topics, 3 technical, 1 political: – – More on MAX VRFs, v 1 and v 2: Dave Diller More on bgp hinting: Brent Sweeny CPS communities, troubleshooting: Caren Litvanyi "It petered out with a sick thud: two competing R&E nets for the foreseeable future, and All That“: Dan

CPS/Transit. Rail Thoughts • This is Caren’s topic, but before she starts on the technicals I wanted to do a quick informal poll: – How many operators in the room are using either settlement-free services? Which? Anyone using both for eg backup/redundancy? (Dave Farmer? ) • Both are growing, seem to be a useful approach. IU runs CPS, PNW/Cenic TR, could be argued that having competition might be a good thing. Or not. Also different approaches technically, VRFs vs separate routers (ASNs), pick the one you like. • So what are people’s experiences? Any issues about transparency? (Where is TR’s router proxy? ) Routing? Anything to talk about? As services, how do they really compare?

“It petered out with a sick thud: two competing R&E nets for the foreseeable future, & All That”: • OK, everyone is Totally Sick of this whole topic. • Absolutely No One likes the way it is now. • Serious brain drain out of the community as the smart techies That Have Always Been the Core – Realize that R&E networking is now more about CIO egos and religious loyalty than about doing cool stuff – So why not go off to Google or Amazon where Things are Still Happening and make a lot more money? • The feud has trickled down to customers, – Who see the divisiveness and lack of direction and wonder if they’re spending their money well – Whereas RONs used to buffer them from these issues

Hardly seems any point in even discussing possible solutions • We can if anyone still has any hope. – <This is not rhetorical>. – Does anyone not with I 2 or NLR believe in some positive solution? – Most people just wish that Someone Would Buy Them Both and Solve It All For Us. Not bloody likely. • By way of background, at MAX over the last year we’ve had our share of this come home to roost. • All right then, so it seems like there might be a point in discussing potential outcomes.

So let me lay my pessimistic outcome on you, and we can argue about that. • Almost everyone agrees that the current state isn’t sustainable. – – Not enough money in the community for both. Zero sum game for customers leads to Loyalty Paranoia Neither one seems to be willing/able to give up or fold. Both are now having severe financial issues, I 2 laying off people, NLR having no real future funding model, etc. – So this “death grip” really can’t continue for very long. • So I think that they’re – going to kill each other off and people are going to walk away from both and build the next generation. “R&E v 6” (NSFnet v 1, v. BNS v 2, Abilene v 3, NLR v 4, Newnet v 5)

Having said that, this may be the last Geeks BOF that I 2 is willing to buy the beer for • Seriously, what would such a “v 6” look like? • It better not be under any 1 set of CIO-types’ control. – If we make that same mistake again, of creating another I 2 or NLR under another name, – we might as well all go home and call it quits. • So I think it’ll be a Different Animal. – No central control, built by the top Rons tossing lines to each other. The original Quilt-net vision. – Guess what? This is already happening for research waves. – Of course, the independent Quilt management committee has officially disavowed this approach <for now>. – A source of low-cost non-I 2 non-NLR non-Level 3 10 G lambdas from a vendor like Qwest would facilitate this.

I’m sure a lot of people, not just I 2 and NLR folks, don’t like this idea much • “That’s fine for research waves, like MAX can toss lambdas west to CHI, north to NYC, and south to ATL, and string vlans hither and yon” • “But what about the IP network? ” – Who’s going to pay for a common set of routers – run by smart folks like our friends at IU – for reliable/consistent service & advanced functionality. • I don’t really have the answer to that. – Lack of consistent routing policy/platforms could be a disaster. Might try something poorly conceived and fail. – Plus throwing away all the work done by I 2 and NLR. • Will RONs have the smarts/courage to meet this

Thanks! Any volunteers for talks next time? Discussion topics you’d like to hear? magorian@maxgigapop. net

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